About This Episode

Episode 12 features Amireh Amirmazaheri of PMO Global Alliance. Amireh is an incredible source of knowledge when it comes to project management and shares with us the challenges of leading teams from different cultural backgrounds. Moving from Iran to Australia, Amireh challenged herself to take risks, adopt new technology, and stay on a consistent path of growth in her career. Amireh shares her Top 5 Tips that encourage self growth as well as growth in your teams, your job and your work environment.

Amireh’s Top 5 Leadership Tips:

Below is a summary of the Top 5 Leadership tips shared during the interview this week. Take a listen to the episode to learn more about the thoughts behind these tips –

  1. Building Trust
  2. Find A Way In Your Environment
  3. Have A Good Understanding Of Data & Technology
  4. Be Proud Of Who You Are
  5. Hear Everyone’s Voice
  6. (BONUS TIP!) Be Conscious Of What You’re Hearing And Saying

We hope you enjoy the episode. You can find even more Full Stack Leader episodes here:


Show Transcript:

Ryan:Hello everyone. And welcome to this week’s episode of the full stack leader. We’re excited to have you with us this week. Amireh Amirmazaheri, she is the PMO global Alliance chief project officer, and she’s worked on many, many projects and has some great things to share with us. Welcome. It’s great to have you this week Amireh

Amireh: Thank you, Ryan. Thanks for having me. Hello from Sydney, Australia. Yep. 

Ryan: Yes, Australia. We’re really excited to do it, I think this might be our first true worldwide interview. So maybe you could tell us a little bit about what brought you to Sydney and how you became the chief project officer for PMO.

Amireh: Thanks, Ryan. And thanks for having me. I’m on the call. I’m originally from Iran. I’m from a very Eastern country and then I moved to Australia when I was. End of 20. I’m not gonna tell you what AGI was, because you can count what age lets you know how old I am now, but I’m .

leaving. Living in Sydney, for more than 14 years, with a little one. And, I have my family here now, kind of like a home for me. What brought me to Australia was kind of, getting better experience or kind of like, browsing more and exploring the world and different areas of working. It was a good adventure, with lots of challenges.

Ryan: Which, which I’m sure we’re going to cover quite a bit here. Cause I think there were some parts about what I heard. 

Amireh: Yeah. Yeah. And then what happened with the PMO global audience? I started my company named PMO Solutions in 2016. And I have always been in touch with America, Pinto, the chair of the PMO global Allianz.

And I, we share a lot of values together and he’s actually one of the best and expert people in the PMO space, PMO solution. Is a boutique consultancy company that provides PMOs services and solutions. And we are trying to be different and to give different experiences in PMO space to our clients.

And when we saw that we were very alone with PMO global Allianz. So we were actually the first company that opened the doors and got the partnership with PMO global Allianz in Australia in June, 2018. You can see the launch events, videos on YouTube. And it was very exciting because we had the launch events in Tesla showrooms in Melbourne, Sydney, Andrews.

 Yeah, that was so exciting. , and then we, uh,, started our engagement with PMO global audience in different projects that they have. So that’s why I am on a board of advisory at 4:00 PM. . They worked, unfortunately, because I have the baby, not, not then unfortunately I had a baby, like I had a baby on 2018 and that makes me a little bit more easier, to, be a hundred percent, Like occupied with PMO global Allianz, but we’ve worked together very, very well, and I’m really proud to be part of the 

Ryan: team.

That’s amazing. Yeah. And I’m really excited to talk to you about how you started PMO solutions. What led to it? As an agency, doing project management is. A very necessary and often challenging thing, because I know you’re going deep into organizations to be able to work on stuff. But maybe you can tell us a little bit about how you first got into project management.

Where did that start? 

Amireh: Uh, you know, my first journey of being an entrepreneur started when I was. I am 15 years old. And at that age you in Iran, you are nodding to get yourself or university. You have a very hard time. Exam to get to the university, which we call it. Concor. For that, I was preparing myself for that exam.

And my dad told me if you want to learn, it’s better to learn how to teach this stuff. If you can teach something that that person can understand, it means that you learn it very well. So you don’t need to sit in, have a tutor or sit in a class to learn how to do the exam. You just need to learn what the content is and absorb it very well.

I started tutoring. So, , I used to teach kids kind of like one year, two year or even four years younger than me. So it gave me this Keala of simplifying and making those things the way that people can understand it. and you know, if you. Describing something to someone and you can not articulate it in a way that that person can understand it and learn it.

It means that you don’t know it.

 Yeah. I started teaching to learn more. 

Ryan: Yeah. That’s a really amazing perspective on that actually. Because I think it’s, it’s so easily overlooked how much you can actually learn in the process of guiding others. Not just new things, but also about the same thing that you’re actually teaching.

There’s so much that can open up. 

Amireh: Yeah, exactly because different people have different ways of learning, and different ways of listening, understanding. So it gave me the opportunity at that age to learn, different, the skills of, conveying the message and communicating with people, being patient about the pace, like, or tuning my pace of delivering the message with a, learning pace. And also using different tools and techniques to teach them. So yeah, then the second entrepreneurship experience that I had was, you know, I’m very lucky that. From a generation that we saw everything, especially in Iran. And when I was born, it was a revolution, and then you can scan smoke. You can know Um, So yeah, I experienced a revolution like, when the revolution happened. And then when I got a little bit older as a kid, we were in a war, and my family. got bigger in, in a war between Iran and Iraq. And then when I went to university, that was the age. that the internet came up like mobile phones. Okay. My class, I remember in our university, whoever had a phone, was calling it kind of like a special person. And then, when I was graduating from university, the internet came along, And I used to play basketball in the university chain. and on one of the tours that we had, I found a job. So, one of the other universities, say, offered me, but actually, I was very lucky that I got an engineer job because I was studying computer hardware.  So I started a network engineer job, in one of the universities and that time I had access to the internet. So my entrepreneurial work was, I used to download those broad buckets, the flower buckets, and sell them in floppy disks, into flower shops. And I was telling them, ah, this is coming from me. But I used to add money out of it. 

Ryan: That is amazing. You were hacking as early as you could hack. 

Amireh: Yeah, exactly. I don’t know how to. I remember that I had a compact laptop. It was super heavy. Yeah, the AI drive. You remember age? I used to walk around the flower shops and then sell them the floppy disk.

and I would see that they have an announcement in the, at the, at the window that we have the. Flower bucket model from the internet. So I’ll tell you, I’ll tell 

Ryan: You, I’ll tell you a quick story too. I also kind of got into the internet in the late nineties, like as a, as a profession. And one of the first jobs was as a sales and marketing person, for a database company. And we would, we would actually go around and. Install, installed browsers onto people’s, desktops, businesses, desktops, because, because they couldn’t actually access certain aspects to do it. So I don’t know how many, like Netscape browsers I installed during that period. But I remember that process of really just kind of like you had to, you had to carry the disc with you.

Amireh: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then, you know, the thing is I was very lucky because my dad is, graduated from hardware, computer engineering, some Pennsylvania university, and he was very, he actually was my main motivator in this journey of not being shy or scared of new technology and, take a risk to be a new adopter. So, yeah, that was my, that was my second, kind of experience of being an entrepreneur and, kind of having my own little business and, teaching in university and studying and all of these things. They’re part of my life. Then after the network engineering job, I got a chance to work in the industrial oil and energy company, which actually gave me the opportunity to boost my career. To get to the point to be an IT manager of that company. And what they were doing was, Viva managing 16 fields, always fields, across the country. So, at that time 

Ryan: oil fields, huh? 

Amireh: Yeah. So in that case, if that was a point that I got introduced into the project management world, because I was managing the IT group, and projects from, Emirates, day were working. Working with us to set up our project management system, which was at that time pre-med. And I actually, I took care of the technicality side of it. So to understand the technicality and the requirements of my stakeholders, I had to learn how the system works. So based on that experience that I had with projects, we started working together for the other clients that projects had in the area, in the regional area. That was, kind of about 2000. To 2002. And I was working with them, as a supporter from the technical side. So they found that a project management is not only a project management side of it. It is needed. Understanding of the technicality, side of it as well. This is actually kind of like a problem in many organizations because they had a very white and black side of it, of the white side is like, oh, it, we take care of the database and the interface and users and the black side of it is that project managers are gonna use kind of like managing the project management knowledge. They are not seeing the middle layer. That is a glue between these. I know I started my journey as bad glue to connect it to the business. I, if you, if you call it the project management or delivery side of the business as a kind of like a business side, and then based on my experience in different clients in, in the region and mainly they were all, or oil and energy engineering companies, I decided to come to Australia and, I learned more and more and more about project management and I was, kind of, working in the business analysis area in the, We could say at PMO, but at that time, as you know, that they’re going to no PMR understanding around, but the role that I was playing in the function was exactly PMR. And then when I moved to Australia, the prima vote global advised me to Primavera Australia. And then I started my journey. Between my rural Australia, then moving forward as a consultant with them working in different countries companies, through a period over Australia. And one of the challenges that my boss has is that I owe him a lot, unfortunately I lost him last year. Not last year they gave it before Christmas because of brain cancer. His name is Mr. Wayne. I owe him a lot. He is such a wonderful person. He puts me on the spot, like, he trusted me, you know, that was the main thing. He trusted me that I could do the job. And he gave me the authority. , he put me in front of his clients and asked me to do it and. He, you know, he, he, one of the best things that he did, he, he knew me and like him, he was a very good leader in terms of delegating the staff and trusting people and respecting if they make any. I came to Australia. I was speaking Farsi and my English. Wasn’t that good? I’m not saying it is good now, but, at that time I could speak French better than English. And then after a month I was working in Premera Australia. He asked me to stand up in front of people and teach them project management. And that was one of the most challenging things. Not only for me, for my students as well. So understanding the concept. So, 

Ryan: I can, you’re back being empowered to be in that teaching position again, right? Yeah. 

Amireh: It’s exactly like that, and my role wasn’t only teaching. Teaching and bringing more work in terms of the consultancy as well. So I was learning a lot of things. One of the main things that I learn is that each single person has their own language. And as a leader, you should, you should understand, you should have those techniques and tools in place to understand how to communicate with each individual person. 

Ryan: Yeah, 

Amireh: absolutely.

Yet, during my experience with different clients, I found there is a big gap in all of them . First of all, those, very low level or organization on a structural, approach to project management , in a very simple word that each project manager is. Um, In a way, which is not bringing any benefit to the business. So kind of in a simple word, saying there is no alignment between this tos and the system between the systems and the methodology and the business processes and the business services. I found lots of our clients had lots of good processes, but those processes were only documented on park in the, at the desk. That made me think more about how I can fix this issue. And I design a framework, which is actually a solution framework, which gives you five different aspects of fixing the problem. Specifically when you are designing a service in general, that one of the services can be project manager. And that framework brought me to this space of like, you know, what I view as setting up my own company. To address this. And luckily I started working with downer, which is actually one of the tier one construction companies in Australia. And, I was appointed to set up a PMO as a program management office for one of the infrastructure contracts. So that was a great opportunity that I could use and test different work, which it worked because the contract wasn’t very. Physician when I joined and I am proud to say that we got to the point that, they were, they, they had clarity and visibility on where the project was. And because of the nature of that type of contract, it was very hard to organize everything in a structured manner. So that was the first client of PMO solutions. And then after that, Yeah, we got more work from board of mouth and, , by bringing PMO global Allianz to Australia and working with PMO global Allianz, we grow and now we are almost about five people working in PMO solutions and we design our services as a fusion of art technology.

Ryan: And. It’s amazing. Thank you. One of the things that struck me as you were talking, on the show, we talk a lot about leadership and how it impacts people and that’s always relevant. And then there’s also leadership within projects too. And I think that’s an area that you’ve studied pretty extensively. So. the way you are covering the need for an understanding of the technicality of something, or really having to bridge communication between different groups in order to have a project come together. I think that’s a really important topic on a leadership level of like, where do you put the focus on projects versus the people and are they completely intertwined or is there some separation between them?

Amireh: Yes. Yes, exactly. And I’m always saying like, the focus should be on people. Like at the end of the day, we are here to live life. You’re not here to deliver a project. And every single person has its own journey. And I believe that leadership is the best day of our lives. Many you’re dealing with little ones. You can see that . They lead you to get something from you. They use any trick that they know to be cute, screaming, crying, hiding, or whatever. They can do it to get what they want. So we are leaders. And each single of us are leaders, but the thing is when you, growing up, you find your own vape and method of leadership. And what I learned along this journey is, you can learn and it’s not something that’s saying, oh, you know what? I’m not a leader from birth, but you can learn and you can, upskill yourself. At the end of the day when you’re sitting at a table and thinking about people on a project, yeah, the focus is on the people and how to connect these two together. Is the challenge. 

Ryan: Have you found that there were, distinct cultural differences and, and the way you had to lead projects or engage with people depending on which region of the world you were in? 

Amireh: Oh, absolutely. Like, that was a big culture shock. When I moved from Iran to Australia, I came from a very, very, very Eastern culture to a very, very, very Western culture that I really didn’t even know anything about.

 The belief that people have, like, I’ll tell you something. I want my husband to be Australian. Yep. And, we’ve been dating and on one of our dates, I was sitting and listening to him and I crossed my arms, on my chest. And he was looking at me like what’s wrong with that person. And then I was like, and in my culture, when you’re crossing your arms on your chest means that I am with you and, I’m hundred and I’m paying attention. And it’s a respect in his culture when you are crossing your, That you are protecting yourself. There’s something. So that was like, and then, because he is, he is an amazing person and he’s a he has it. He’s a very good communicator and very knowledgeable. He asked me if everything was okay. Yeah, I’m listening. And he said, can I ask why you’re crossing your arms? And I was like, oh, I’m listening to you. And then we found that this is a different site. You can see how much detail is in perceptions and the thinking of the people. And when you are moving from one country to the other country, The best thing that you can do is your, you need to reset your head of all the many softwares that are installed in your head in terms of their do. And don’ts. 

Ryan: Yeah, I want to jump in here too. I had an interesting thing like that within our own company where we manage teams and in Eastern Europe and in India and right. But we get everybody together once a quarter to get on a big call and talk to everybody. And I always of course deliver the talk, in English and we, this one meeting we had created, our. Core values for the company, and we want to share those with it, but with everyone, one of the core values was passion, but translated into, translating into Bella Russian. It meant something very different than how I intended it to mean. And it was just this little and luckily I got a heads up that this would be the case.So we found the right translation for it. And we realized, in the core values, we also needed to translate. That across the languages. So the concept was shared, in a way that could reach each of the different cultures. 

Amireh: Yeah. Yeah. We have, kind of like a default setup and default actions, because of the journey that’d be having when we are growing up. So yeah, . That’s not the culture. It’s kind of like an educational event. They had a project in a mining site and I was sitting in this, on the side and working, and it seems that they were planning some explosion in the size and they did the explosion and everybody found me on the niece of. It was completely on the fly by my default. By my brain’s default, I jumped on the niece of the table and they looked at me. What are you doing? And all of that quick. And they said, no, it wasn’t exposed because I was trained as a disaster. In Iran there was an earthquake. My unconscious mind puts me on the table. Big ones that the ground started changing. And they were like, they couldn’t understand why I’m doing that. So this is, these are the differences. Like people’s concept, like perspective.

Ryan: Yeah, I love that. I love that idea here, too, like how much does the unconscious mind based on your experiences, affect you as a leader? How much do you do things that are just kind of naturally you, but they really, you can’t even put attention or consciousness on them because you’re not aware of them, but they affect how you’re seen as a leader.

Amireh: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. In the other project I was in, I was appointed to map day processes and I mapped the processes very cleanly, very nicely. Put it on the presentation on the board. And when people were looking at it, it didn’t make sense, but for me it was making sense very well.

And, , I looked at them about this as a start point and this is a flow and this is the, and then they looked at me. I said, okay, why is this flow starting from right to left?” It should be left to. Right. And it was the moment that I felt, oh, we write in Farsi from right to left. Yeah. I knew right in English from left to right. What I want to say is that unconscious pain is very strong. And if you are not aware of that, and if you are not looking at it in our change management process and in that transition, we’ve done a lot to lose some of the points. , especially now after COVID, most of the businesses are going for lots of changes. So as a leader, we have to consider these unconscious layers of ourselves in people. Because we all learn in a different way of working, in a different way of reading and in a different way of communicating. Now, the word has changed. In a sense like, look at me now, I’m sitting outside in the lovely weather on Saturday morning in Sydney and I’m interviewing you in us. And I think it’s going to be your Friday afternoon, right? The board is changed and we need to understand those kinds of unconsciousness and what they experience. Artist’s deal there. So when we are setting up any policy, any procedure, any way of working, we need to consider those sorts of things , for people, to create that trust and physical contact between everybody.

Ryan: Absolutely. I think that’s brilliant. Like it really is. An unspoken social contract that sometimes we don’t even understand the impact of it with all the different people and the different cultures and the different backgrounds and histories that everyone has. And so like really putting consciousness to that, and especially as you’re going into projects to work together across teams that might be spread across the world, which is not uncommon in today’s tech industry. It’s an interesting challenge as you’re putting a project together that involves a lot of. 

Amireh: Yeah, exactly. That psychological contract, that social contracts are now to the point. And the other thing that I would like to add to this is, building a trial. Is very important and the way of building trust is changing and evolving. , if 10 years ago building a trust was, , you have to have a formal contract signed as a paper in a legal environment. , not changing and it’s fun to be changed in the future as well. 20 years ago, nobody could trust another person to go to another city and stay in another person’s house. But now ABM, we are doing that 

Ryan: hotels. Yeah. 

Amireh: Yeah. See how the way of building trust is changing. It is hard to be an OLED, but it is very easy to break it. And as we are moving forward, it’s much easier to break that trust, because people are more connected. , people can talk about it. So it is very important to, as a leader, understand how to build trust on different levels.

Ryan: That’s great. And, I wanna, I want to hear some more about what you have to say and our top five tips. Cause I think they’re going to be interesting how they translate over from this conversation. , Before we go into the next section. Is there anything that you want to share with us about how you’re looking to continue that evolution, going forward with PMO solutions? 

Amireh: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. As I said, it is very important to have a good understanding of your environment. The first thing. It is my experience. And this is my learning from my journey . The first thing that the leader should do is to have a good understanding of the environment. Not too much in details, not too much conservative or not too broad, but have a good understanding of how to adapt and how to communicate within that. It’s like, you’re leaving from one country to the other country. When I came to Australia. If I kept talking in Farsi, nobody could understand me. So I have put, I should understand that this info environment. Own structure has its own way of working and its own is to be able to adapt in this society and this environment. So the first thing is to understand the environment, the changes that environment is going through. And also then the other one is, as I said, the field, the trust because mainly leadership is, to build that trust and then practicing that on, And understanding that there is always, some reason on the surface of each reaction. So it is kind of like learning how to communicate with people. The other thing that I really would like to share with you and audiences is be proud of your difference. Especially I have this message specifically for women: do not be afraid of your differences, do not be afraid of being a mom and raise it that I have a kid and I’ll have to go, and stick to your values because, The thing that makes the world better is the differences. If everybody were the same, we would have a very boring word. So 

Ryan: You even need those differences on a project. You need different types of people that do different types of things in different types of personalities to drag different aspects of it. That kind of variety is vital. And, I think it’s a great thing to bring for.

Amireh: Yeah. And then, the other thing that I would come to bring into the picture is, the leadership is to make sure that all the voices are heard and, , people are on the same page. And if you can learn how to simplify the things and make sure that they understand it. I think it’s a very hard task to learn, because a good leader is not a person who wants to get all the credits to himself, but a person that sees their success from different people, point of view, and. Celebrating that with the people, not with him itself, it’s not an individual journey. Yeah. It’s a family journey. 

Ryan: I think that’s that there is no leadership without the other people. It’s kind of that simple. and I think that, Interestingly in life. We’re not always in leadership positions, even if we experienced that in our career, maybe we are not in other aspects of our life. So you can’t have it all in every single space. and we really do have to lean in. So we kind of know what it feels like, to know whether that leader is considering the whole team and kind of , that bigger piece that’s got. 

Amireh: Yeah. Yeah. And then exactly.

Like respecting and liking your defenses and using those differences to lead in a unique way of your own. It’s very important. And I learned this lesson when I started teaching people in project management, because my English wasn’t that good. And then I was going to class. I had a fear of oh my God, they’re going to ask me a question that I will not understand. And it all, I cannot answer. I’ll put all of my efforts to convey the message, the simplest way that I feel that they understand it very well. So, and then I use a technique of scribing, because I want a color. And I use the pain to deliver the message. And I could say , if they don’t understand my accent or if I struggle or bring the word, I can draw it.

Ryan:  So that was even within project management, right? Oh, yes, 

Amireh: Actually I believe. Everything can be whenever you’re presenting something to someone, people will be more engaged if there is a prettier visual component, right? Visual component in it. So when I was teaching, it was a limitation that, , Led me to use my painting skills, but then I found it, oh, that is a unique way of doing that. So, I started kind of exploring and then finding out how better I can put that together. So whenever I have a very hard meeting with Tufts stakeholders, I use this technique to break the ice. And kind of like changing the environment as well from the very dry project management way or working on the business and the profits and to, a cartoon. Characters and, and it works. 

Ryan: That’s amazing. 

Amireh: So yeah, just to be proud and sometimes Ryan, you can believe it, but sometimes when I saw that in the class, or sometimes when I see in the meeting that people are not paying attention, I start speaking class.

Ryan: And let’s see if you understand this part and see if you, are you there with me? Are you there? I, 

Amireh: that when I see them, when I speak Farsi on and then they are turning back because their ear is hearing something that it’s not. Yeah. So I can grab their attention without saying anything. 

Ryan:  Oh, sorry, just came to my mind what a great, what a great skill to have. There’s a really good tip. 

Amireh: So yeah, you can, just be proud of what you are, how you are. It just makes life easier and less stressful. 

Ryan: Yeah. and having that combination of, different flavors of people and of skills and all of that, they’re central to creating an environment that. That can perform and be creative and innovative in ways that maybe you wouldn’t have, if it was really homogenous. So I 

Amireh: I really liked that. 

The thing is, you know, the trick is to know when to use. Yeah. Yeah, because sometimes it’s not a time to use it or sometimes it’s a very good time. So it’s very important to know when and how to use it and which flavor. But if you are brave and start using it, you will learn. And people are very responsive because people love the difference. People love variety  and they really enjoy it very much. I just beat bright. And, as I say, as I’m saying that, I especially, I want to say that to the two young ladies and the woman that just be bright.

Break One 

Ryan: Amira reminds us that so much of leadership is about creating connection through common understanding and the ability to articulate ideas beyond the surface level. This was especially important in her journey. One that led her from living as a young technologist in the middle east to expanding her project management skill set in Austria.

All the cultural expectations and approaches were different in the two regions, her underlying ability to find common communication techniques illustrates the universality of the creative process. More importantly, her leadership journey has been one that is defined by a learning mindset. I love that. That’s amazing. Be brave, be yourself. Yeah. So maybe so let’s, let’s stop and, maybe we can, do a quick review of the five tips that you want to come out of all of this that you want to just quickly share with our audience and make sure that they hear them. 

Tip One ( Building Trust )

Amireh: I started with bending the trials. So learning how to build trust, learning the skills and the way of building trust. Understanding that matching, adapting yourself with the environment. So understanding the environment, what the moment is, what are the needs? Not in a very high level of details or not very inappropriate level of details, understanding how to find your way

Tip Two ( Find A Way In Your Environment )

Amireh: And, that was the second one. The third one is understanding, having a good understanding of data and technology. I’ve been in touch with lots of good people leaders, and they’re very good executives that have no understanding of technicality. They don’t have any understanding of technology.

Tip Three ( Have A Good Understanding Of Data And Technology )

Amireh: If they cannot open the app, they get panicked. They cannot even fix those little problems. As a leader, learn that technology is here to make your life easier. And learn that technology, respect to the people who are savvy in technology. So it’s very important, especially in this era, learning how to understand and interpret telling this story because they tell, That the fourth one is be proud of who you are and use your differences as a point of moving forward.

Tip Four ( Be Proud Of Who You Are )

Amireh: And the fifth one is, making sure that you are hearing all the voices. 


Tip Five ( Make Sure You Hear Everyone’s Voice ) 

Ryan: Say a little more about that.

Amireh: Looking at it from the family perspective, you’re sitting around the dinner table and some of your kids are that character that talks a lot, that they are engaging in decision-making and they share everything with you. And one of the kids is not that way. So find a way, To give them that person an opportunity to talk to that person to like a safe environment, to be vulnerable and save more men to speak up. And having the acknowledgement around that. I’m hearing everybody again, especially in this era when we are talking visually and there is a big opportunity of losing people, engagement and people. Make sure that everybody I engage with, everybody is listening and that is happening with learning different types of learnings and also learning different types of characters. It can be as simple as a disc character analysis, like a D I S C type of characters, or there are lots of other ways and techniques that you can find out. How to communicate with people and how to bring them along and engage them in the journey. This is a very important skill of the leaders at the moment. And I want to add another six, six points. 

Ryan: The bonus bonus 

Amireh: bonus might

BONUS POINT ( Be Conscious Of What You’re Hearing And Saying ) 

Amireh: not bushy people. If you don’t know something, say, I don’t know. So be conscious about what you hear and what you are delivering to people. Sometimes it’s better to be quiet. 

Ryan: Yeah. I hear that. I think that is an excellent way to end this. It was really great to hear all of those tips, but I really like to be able to hear all of them.

Within , the kind of wonderful tapestry of this life that you’ve lived, where you’ve been able to be in different cultures. And you’ve experienced lots of different projects and really seen so many different things to where, your leadership now is influenced even unconsciously by this amazing history. And we’re really glad you shared it with us today. 

Amireh: Yeah, learning 

Ryan: right. And we’ll keep on learning. All right. Great job. Awesome work. This’ll be really fun. You did an amazing job.

Amireh: Yeah, we’ll fix one before the end, 

Ryan: because I loved it. That was amazing. That’s a great way to end. We’ll put, we’ll make sure that gets in the blog too. yeah, no, thank you. I hope you enjoy it. Hopefully you like it and you have this with you, the rest of your life. And, I think it’s a great snapshot of a lot of learning that you’ve done over the course of your history. 

Amireh: Thank you so much, Ryan. Thanks for your help. Giving me that experience as well. 

Ryan: I walked away from my interview with a mirror being reminded that as a leader, we have to put special attention on our unconscious habits, actions, and communications. Even as the world comes together to speak in common languages, such as code or pixels, we still carry with us a long history of our own cultural biases that can affect our ability to work with teams of different cultural, racial, and gender makeups. The moment we take into consideration our own invisible communication style is the moment that we can really learn to guide, teach and lead so many.