In the latest edition of the Full Stack Leader, we talked to Orion Ohev, a Team Dynamics Coach.
Orion emphasizes the importance of understanding intricate dynamics within teams, often rooted in unconscious and nervous system level reactions. He believes in delving beneath surface level issues to uncover the true dynamics between team members. Orion also stresses the importance of recognizing the significance of diversity, equity, and inclusion and creating an environment where all perspectives and talents are valued.
During the interview, Orion shares leadership tips that center on fundamental principles for effective management. He encourages leaders to bolster their team’s capacity before presenting them with opportunities for growth. This involves recognizing the team as an organism with a distinct operating rhythm and ensuring that its capacity aligns with the challenges provided.
Top leadership tips from Orion Ohev
Below is a summary of the top Leadership tips shared during this week’s interview. Listen to the episode to learn more about the thoughts behind these tips:
- Increase capacity before opportunity
- Remove resistance before action
- Diversity, equity, and inclusion are all about unlocking natural innovation
- Create space for conversation around systemic issues
- Busyness is inefficiency, inefficiency is opportunity
We hope you enjoy the episode. You can find more Full Stack Leader episodes here.
Part 1. On the career and experience
Ryan: Hello, everyone, and welcome to this week’s episode of the Full Stack Leader podcast. This week, I’m here with Team Dynamics Coach Orion Ohev. I’m really excited about this conversation, Orion. It’s great to have you here.
Orion: So good to be here. I’m super pumped for it, too.
What it means to be a Team Dynamics Coach
Ryan: I’m really excited to hear about the title “Team Dynamics Coach.” It’s got an impact in every single word.
I’m excited to hear what it means for you. Maybe you can tell us a little bit about why you took that title.
Orion: Sure. Yeah, I love this question. Well, the thing that excites me about working with teams is the intricate dynamics across different people’s skill sets, talents, and geniuses, and the dynamics go so deep.
So, a lot of times when there are challenges on teams, it actually comes down to stuff that isn’t even happening at the logical level- it’s below the logic level. It’s at the unconscious level, the nervous system level. There are reactionary things happening that the people on the team don’t even realize that are creating these dynamics.
So, for me, it’s about getting underneath the surface-level challenges and getting to the root of the dynamics between two people and between a group of people.
Ryan: I can only imagine how unbelievably important that is in dynamic workplaces.
So before we get started on this specific topic, maybe give us a little bit of a rundown of where you come from and how you got into something like this. We can start early in your career.
Beginning of the career
Orion: Yeah. So, I’ve been coaching for over nine years now. Started off in coaching by accident- I never thought I’d be a coach.
I’ve always been that person who people have come to for support, but my background is actually in tech. Started off as a computer science major, ended up with a human-computer interaction degree, working in corporate and really being a part of teams and getting to witness what it was like from many different perspectives as an engineer, as a user interface designer, as a project manager, and then as a program manager, managing multiple teams and really getting to witness the dysfunction that could happen from all these different perspectives.
At the time, I didn’t really know what to do about it. But after I left corporate, I went on my entrepreneurship journey. Started a few different businesses in different industries and then was asked to speak at an event in Sydney.
The turning point
Orion: So, in 2014, I was invited to give a talk in Sydney, Australia, and that was about helping people not try to take giant leaps -and that is because that’s what I was noticing at the time. Everyone was stuck in roles and teams and situations that they weren’t really happy in, aligned to, or able to give their biggest value in because they were afraid to speak up, afraid to be fully expressed, afraid to take a leap or communicate what they needed.
So, I created a step-by-step approach to really helping navigate the internal blocks to align to the kind of role and team they really were going to thrive in and benefit the company. So, after that talk, someone came up to me in tears, crying and just saying, “Wow, of all the talks and workshops I’ve been to, this finally feels like it’s getting to the thing I’ve been missing. It’s not just giving me strategy or telling me what to do. It’s helping me understand what’s going on inside of me and how to shift it.”
And they asked me to mentor them. So, that became my first coaching client, and I’ve been coaching ever since. Over the years, my reputation has led me to coach people higher up in organizations, a lot of C-suite executives, VPs, and CEOs of small companies, to support them in similar work and really help them shift their internal world so they can manage their teams better, and realize where they’re creating challenges from within – and that led me to them working with their teams.
Inspiration for the career change
Ryan: Wow. That sounds amazing. And the talk sounds really amazing as well.
I was wondering what inspired that conversation. Because it seems like it goes beyond the “surface level” kind of conversation that we often have about leadership, which is “Do this thing and get this result.”
Orion: Yeah. It was inspired by my time in corporate. The company I was working for was definitely not treating me well, which was pretty typical of a lot of stories I heard. They were getting the most out of me, squeezing the most out of me, asking more out of me, and keeping the can kicked down the road for giving me more in exchange.
I got promoted multiple times to work with higher and higher level teams and didn’t get any additional compensation. And that really led me to realize how much my nervous system was addicted to trying to prove myself, or trying to make it work, or trying to just play that game, and how I wasn’t standing up for myself. I wasn’t holding my boundaries with them. I wasn’t saying “no.” I was really buying into the “I’ve got a sacrifice in order to move up the ladder.”
Making the “big jump”
Orion: Once I realized that I didn’t want to do that anymore and realized that the reason I had stayed for so long was because I was scared to take that “big jump,” – I thought I had to have it all figured out – when I realized that I just needed to take one step in the direction of deeper alignment and start to sort out the parts of me that were so scared to be in my power and be fully expressed and add the most value and be appreciated for it, that led me to have the courage to quit and start my entrepreneurship journey.
Those next three years of entrepreneurship leading up to that talk and the experiences I had of amazing opportunities that were so in alignment with my natural genius and so appreciative of my natural skills led me to want to share that with others and help other people get out of that destructive cycle.
Natural talent and genius
Ryan: That’s amazing. Yeah, I really like that. I like the terms “to your natural genius” and “your natural skills.” Maybe you can say a little bit more what you mean by that?
Orion: Sure. Yeah, To me, there is the natural talent we’re born with that is usually – at least in America – we are conditioned very early. I think most kids are. I don’t want to bucket everyone into that, but they are conditioned to think of their natural talent and skills as hobbies. What you’re really good at, that’s what you do for fun.
What you’re going to get paid for, you got to go to school. You’ve got to earn a degree. You’ve got to toil. You’ve got to work hard and memorize for tests.
There’s this early, early teaching and conditioning by our parents, by teachers, by peers that as you start to move into school, you’ve got to conform, you’ve got to put those natural talents aside so that you can succeed in what you’re going to be tested on.
Balancing education and natural talents
And I don’t blame, personally, my parents for that because this has been going on for thousands and thousands of years. And, slowly, our society has become one of suppressing that natural curiosity, even before age seven, as soon as kids are getting into kindergarten.
So there’s the natural talent and genius that I think every kid is born with that is their “A” skills, the things that are just that before school. It would be like the blacksmith that is naturally really good at forging metal. And then there’d be the town farmer who naturally had that skill. All of the roles were based on natural talent.
Now, obviously, I’m not against education. We have a need now in our complex society to develop skills and to provide opportunities to learn more skills. Just for me, not in place of natural talent. How do we embrace all of the three skills, experience, and that natural genius, that natural way of communicating, way of operating, way of managing, way of being in the workplace?
Pitfalls of skill misalignment
Ryan: Yeah, I really like that. And I was thinking about it, not just as an employee going into a company trying to find the right fit that kind of fits their natural genius, but also as a leader and maybe an entrepreneur, or even a tech leader, who’s trying to find the right project to either create or really oversee that you could probably pick the wrong thing, right?
Orion: Absolutely. Yeah. They could pick the wrong thing, or even if they pick the right thing, they could be trying to pigeonhole themselves into a way of leading the project that isn’t in alignment with their natural genius.
There are some managers, project managers, that are really good with motivation and inspiration. There are others that are really good with organization. There are others who are really good with details, while others are really good with big picture strategy and vision, and often the role they’re in the day-to-day isn’t in alignment with that natural way of being, that natural way of communicating.
So, even if they have the skills, there’s that misalignment that then has them frustrated, has the team frustrated, and there’s that resistance that prevents the project from moving as smoothly as it could.
Helping the misplaced employees: Surface level
Ryan: Are you able to see these misplaced people within an organization as part of the team dynamics and offer suggestions that get them in the right place?
Orion: Yes, absolutely. That happens in 2 ways. I’m certified by an organization called Talent Dynamics, which is an amazing tool. I hesitate to call it a profiling tool because it doesn’t really provide a personality profile. It actually really identifies what a person’s lane of genius is. It really helps them get back to that essence of what they’re born to do, what is natural to them. It’s a really cool system created by Roger Hamilton that maps out each person’s genius in a visual way.
So when I put them all out in front of a team, each person looks like a puzzle piece, and you can even really quickly and easily see where the puzzle pieces fit together and where they don’t, and also it gives a really useful language to communicate across difference across different ways of being and communicating and really understanding like, “Oh, my God, no wonder we’ve been struggling to communicate and work together for the last three years because you think this way and I think this way and you operate this way and we really need a third person in here to help us, and here’s that person.
Helping the misplaced employees: Deeper level
So that’s at the surface level. At the deeper level, It’s in the digging with each person and the uncovering in the going through what I think is the essence of what I call team dynamics.
That dynamic nature of what’s actually happening in your nervous system that you’re not even aware of. In what ways did you learn as a kid to suppress your full expression, to hide that part of you? Where did you learn these skills to replace what you’re naturally good at? How did you define your worth by your success? How did you define in what ways do you feel threatened by these people around you that are – without even realizing it creating some kind of block to flow on the team?
So those are the two ways I approach it. The “surface level” way, mapping out the talent, and then the “deeper” of what’s actually in the way of you adding the most value to the team and being in the role that is best suited for you.
Looking through the lens of seasons
Ryan: Very interesting. So, I feel like I have a good understanding of “if the puzzle pieces don’t fit together.” I have many guests that come on the show and talk about the most important thing as a leader is the teams working together. But with the pieces falling into place to work together, what are the results of that? Like, what do you get from it?
Orion: Basically, what I help teams look at is look at the work through the lens of seasons. So they’re able to see what season a project is in, what season a business is in, what season their department is in, and then they’re able to make sure the right people are performing the right tasks at the right moment of a project. It increases efficiency, reduces waste of energy and waste of time, as well as reduces burnout and frustration.
Mapping out talent in an imperfect world
But I can’t stress enough that the puzzle pieces, by themselves, aren’t enough. It’s because it doesn’t matter how well I lay out the puzzle pieces that show this is how you’d all work together in an “ideal world” if there’s a bunch of unconscious social, cultural, psychological ,and emotional patterning going on underneath the surface that is going to keep showing up and keep creating the same resistance and the same conflict over and over again.
So it’s really about mapping out the talent, showing the puzzle pieces, and then creating space for the really tough conversations for the self-awareness of where people are actually creating challenges that they think other people are creating, and then creating space for those conversations with each other to unblock and to communicate the things that are unspoken- that actually clears out the stuck energy, it removes resistance so that map, that complete puzzle can actually be lived.
Conformity and conflict
Ryan: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I know I have worked with many teams over the course of years, and you have different teams at different points in time that are more willing to share with each other and be more personally or intimately engaged. And then some teams don’t want to put anything out there, and they really protect themselves.
It seems like some of the conflicts you mentioned with these kinds of underneath elements might come out of a place of trying to fit within companies, but I don’t know. What do you think about that?
Orion: Is it trying to fit within companies?
Ryan: Yeah, trying to fit in or making sure that you matter as a person who’s working on the project.
Orion: One of the biggest challenges that most humans carry is a feeling of not being enough, of not being worthy. And there’s a lot of scientific data to back that now, a lot of psychological data to back that.
It is rooted in the system we’re born into. It was generational at this point. It goes back many generations of conformity, suppression, and needing to fall in line and be a good soldier, fit in, be a good student, not ruffle too many feathers, and not speak too loudly. And then, when we bring in other elements like race and gender and things like that, that adds even more challenges. In a Western culture that’s very built around the concept of “whiteness,” – when I say that word, I’m actually talking about more of a political term than anything else.
Importance of diversity, equity, and inclusion
Actually, that term was created for many political reasons to start to put people in these buckets, and it has resulted in a lot of people of color and non-male identified individuals who identify as women or other genders that are really not speaking out, really not bringing their creative genius to the team because of additional layers of ways they’ve had to learn to conform to this very professional speak “I’ve got to show up and in a very “button my tie up” kind of way to be heard.” And a lot of other cultures don’t operate that way. And so there’s so much creativity and innovation lost, and I’m getting a little bit off-tangent on your question, I think.
But yes, it is about fitting in, and there is so much subtlety and nuance to that. That’s why, for me, diversity, equity, and inclusion are not about just checking a box to make sure that on paper or when you take a picture of the team, it looks diverse. It’s so much subtler than that.
Innovation as a key to successful future
There’s so much money left on the table from not activating and creating space for these voices to have a safe space to be in their full, unique expression again and to allow for different cultural perspectives and ways of communicating to be present. Those are the companies that I think are really going to be future-proofed at this point because we’re entering into such an advanced technology age with the age of AI emerging out of the information age. The companies that are going to make it are the innovative ones because things are changing so rapidly, and innovation is bred from communication across differences from allowing different perspectives, and to sit in the tension of it, to allow something more amazing to emerge out of all of that.
Yeah. This idea of people, this conflict being born from everyone trying to fit in, to unravel that takes patience and a willingness to slow down, to speed up, to create space for these things to be brought to awareness and spoken about with the team.
Cost of conflict
Ryan: Yeah, what you just said is absolutely incredible, and I agree.
I think that there is a big change happening in the way that we work together, accept each other, and open each other’s creative genius up, and you can see it all over the place. But what is the actual cost of conflict when it’s happening within a group?
Orion: Yeah. It’s interesting. The cost of conflict in a group is the same, almost the same as the cost of conflict with individuals, which is pretty amazing.
That was my theory heading in when I was transitioning from working with individuals to teams: “I bet you I could approach a team the same way I approach a person.” And the way I approach a person is, “Okay, you want this result, but there’s clearly a mechanism in your nervous system that is preventing it.”
So it doesn’t matter how many techniques I give you or how many coaches or workshops you go to. It doesn’t really matter because you’re going to end up right back here. You might get a temporary result from adrenaline and low power, but you’re not going to be able to sustain it because your nervous system is protecting against the very thing you want for some reason.
Finding the true reason for the problem
And until we get to the bottom of that, the cost is getting a lot done and going not very far. I almost was going to say “going nowhere,” but that’s a little bit exaggerated. But it often appears that there’s a lot. Everyone’s “to-do” list is full. Everyone’s busy and often moving in kind of a circular fashion, like moving forward, but completing these unnecessary circles so the cost is revenue. The cost is profit. The cost is retaining top talent and retaining aligned talent.
Because when there isn’t a sense of belonging, psychological safety, engagement, and opportunities for employees to feel fulfilled in using their natural talents, then silos begin to form, and infighting begins to happen.
There’s less communication, especially as a company is growing. So now there’s the overhead. Now, there’s the wasted energy. There are people clocking in and not really working very hard because they’ve lost motivation. So we could put some dollar amounts to it, but the cost is. the bottom line profit impact, the mission. There’s a lot of wasted action fighting against resistance instead of taking the time to remove it.
Transitioning to leadership
Ryan: Yeah, that is absolutely true. I think it’s interesting too, as you were talking, I was really thinking. Things like the siloing and really that kind of psychological safety element. There’s a lot of nuance within it and a lot of complexity in the way that you work with people. And I think in technology, I’m going to make a broad statement that is relatively true probably, but in technology, a lot of leaders get into leadership positions from being great technologists.
They’re really good at the actual skill set behind open-up technology and have it work and don’t get trained in these kinds of things.
Do you think it’s any harder in technology than in any other industry? And how do you see successful leaders in this space transitioning what they’re doing?
Orion: “Transitioning what they’re doing.”- Can you clarify that last part?
Ryan: Yeah, transitioning from being just an engineer or somebody who is there to either innovate new ideas or solve new problems, which is an important part of the technology aspect of things in general, into being able to hold something like what you’re talking about, which is a pretty complex theory.
Talent VS skills
Orion: Yeah. Got it. Totally. Great question.
So, first part. Yeah, I do think it’s harder in technology for the reason you stated, and I think that there is the next wave of companies that are starting to try to think in new ways around that kind of promotional way of a technical person moving up into management.
And that’s part of the talent. That’s the talent piece versus skills that we were talking about earlier. It’s like this person’s a skilled technologist, engineer, et cetera. And yet their natural talent isn’t the management of people. Management of people can be learned, and their skills can be learned, but there is a certain essence of a natural motivator, inspirer, or someone who can naturally see potential and challenge people in a way that they can receive it.
There’s a natural skill to being able to communicate a complex vision in a way that people can understand. And I think it’s really important that roles are a little bit more flexible, and that’s something I work with teams on is how do you actually have roles, not just based on a job description, but based on a talent description, a genius description and how do you make sure everyone on the team knows how to leverage each other optimally and when there’s a new project, maybe it’s the logical person in the org chart isn’t the one to lead up that project. Maybe it’s someone with a certain talent set.
Identifying the natural talent
And then the second part of your question, which was around how they make that transition to the complex kind of system that I’m talking about.
I don’t think everyone is suited to hold that kind of space for multiple people. When I work with a team, I approach it at the fractal level, meaning what happens at the individual level happens at the relational level happens at the team level. So if there’s dysfunction at the individual level, there’s at any one individual level, there’s going to be dysfunction at the team level.
So, with each individual, I go in deep to understand where they feel they’re adding the most value, where they feel they aren’t able to do that, and where their role is in a match for that skill set – but where also their own self-limitations in their psychological, emotional, cultural, systemic, social belief systems inside of them.
I help them start to dig those up where they’re holding themselves back, where their own imposter syndrome or self-doubt keeps them from being that person. So, for me, it’s first identifying and working with people to understand what they see as their natural talent, where they can fit and how they can thrive, and then what’s in the way of that, if anything.
Clearing the resistance
So, like you said, what I’m suggesting is very complex. Ideally, there’s a person on the team who can hold it, and usually, there’s a certain kind of talent or energy type I’m looking for to help them hold this kind of space.
In the senior leadership – and I like to do my best to train senior leadership to hold the space for their teams, but also the real juice is at the complexity level, which is working with each cell of the nervous system of the team, meaning each individual to regulate the whole team nervous system. And so that way, the lift isn’t as heavy for the person who is going to be holding the space going forward.
So when I come in, I want to clear as much resistance as I can, help as many team members as I can come into alignment, build their communication skills, and create team conversations that have never been had before, where the team leaves, and they’re like, “Wow, I never thought we could have actually talked about that together without getting defensive or frustrated,” and, “oh, wow, we really just did that.”
Finding the common language
And then two months later, they’re like, “holy cow, we’re working together better than we ever have.” Because everyone has a common language, everyone is looking with a deeper self-awareness and able to communicate boundaries and needs and work with each other to collaborate and leverage each other’s talent and genius in new ways.
I hope I answered your question. I’m not actually sure I did.
Ryan: I think you did. And I really appreciate all of the insights today. I could talk to you for hours about this, and I’m sorry, we have such a short time to do it. I would like to invite you back, though, to do a second round of this because the stuff that’s coming up for me is probably our conversation about how you take and apply this across a much larger group.
I really appreciate everything you shared today. And, hopefully, people listening are able to take away some really powerful things. And Orion, we’ll have information on how to get a hold of you in the show notes.
Part 2. Top leadership tips
Ryan: Welcome back, everyone. Again, we’re here with Orion. It’s great to have you here, and we’re excited to hear your top five tips because I’m sure you give them out to a lot of people.
So, what’s tip number one?
Tip 1: Increase capacity before opportunity
Orion: Yeah, tip number one is to increase capacity before opportunity. So that means look at your team as I invite you to look at your team as an organism that has a natural way of operating and it has a nervous system.
So if the capacity of the nervous system isn’t matching the opportunities you’re providing your team, it doesn’t matter how many opportunities for empowered leadership, personal development, and professional development you provide – the capacity to hold that deeper level of expression isn’t there.
So, build the capacity of your team first.
Ryan: Wow, what a great tip. And it’s not something you would naturally think about, but we do think about capacity all the time in terms of workload. But there is this capacity as well with interpersonal load, correct?
Orion: Yep, exactly. You hit it on the head.
Tip 2: Remove resistance before action
Ryan: That’s amazing. Okay. What’s tip number two?
Orion: Number two, remove resistance before action. So, following up on number one, this is really about creating space for curiosity when there’s tension and really not pushing through the tension when there’s a lot of pressure. I know there are nuances here because there are to-do lists and deadlines, but whenever possible, get really curious and create space to get underneath tension and resistance so that your action goes much further.
Ryan: That’s really great. And it is so easy to stay at the surface. Trying to go underneath is a difficult thing but well worth it. All right. Tip number three – what do you have?
Tip 3: Unlock natural innovation through diversity, equity, and inclusion
Orion: Number three, diversity, equity, and inclusion is about unlocking natural innovation. It’s so interesting to think about diversity, equity, and inclusion as a new field when really all it’s about is honoring everyone’s voice.
Honoring everyone’s way of being, honoring everyone’s way of thinking and communicating and expressing. And it’s really about coming back to the natural expression of the organism that we mentioned in number one and really allowing, realizing that DEI is, to me, almost synonymous, if not synonymous, with innovation, natural innovation.
Ryan: Yeah. That’s pretty powerful because a really diverse group of minds can do a lot that kind of a closed amount can do. All right. Tip number four. What do you have?
Tip 4: Create space for conversation around systemic issues
Orion: Tip number four. Create space for conversation around systemic issues. So, it’s just similar to number two. Like you mentioned, Ryan, this is easier said than done. But there’s sometimes the hardest things are the most valuable things, right? And it’s really about I would even invite the leaders to listen to what is your nervous system’s capacity to trust that you don’t have to get the whole to-do list done.
What’s most important is unblocking resistance for the long-term success of the business. When there’s too much focus on the never-ending need to get the next proposal out and get the next project done, these systemic issues will keep coming back up and keep creating problems time and time again. It’s just another hamster wheel.
So, really understanding where each person on the team is in their natural flow what that is, and when you notice they’re not in it, what are the systemic issues showing up culturally and socially in the team – because there are, guaranteed – in your team, there are systemic issues being perpetuated through the team that they don’t know of that you’re not aware of that they’re happening at the unconscious level because we live in a society with a lot of systemic issues.
So, creating space for that exploration and building the skillset is some of the most valuable time and money I think you could spend.
Finding the time to work on issues
Ryan: Yeah. And this is such an important tip.
I absolutely understand what you’re saying because you can get so locked into that repetitive unconscious, “just do work,” and with what you were just saying is when you run a company, as many tech companies are with people all over the world, with all kinds of different cultures the dynamics have an opportunity to be really challenging because everybody’s coming from such different places.
I know we, as a company, have been learning our kind of core culture group, but they’re very different. And learning how to work with each other has been a big part of our job.
Orion: Oh, that’s awesome. And I wish I could hear more about that. I’m super excited to dive in more about that and what you’ve learned.
And like you said, it’s with the bigger the team and the more international the team. I know what I’m saying isn’t easy. And I know what some of you listening might be thinking is, “Come on, when is there going to be time for that?”
But the real question is if there isn’t time for that, get really curious about how and why that happened. And because of the time that it will take now, and whatever might fall away, whatever proposal might not get sent out or things might not get sent out, that space that gets created is going to get filled in by something so much more powerful.
And it’s this is where nervous system capacity comes in again. What is the capacity for change? What is the capacity for trust? What is the capacity for alignment to really acknowledge? Hey, we’re out of alignment. We grew. Maybe we grew a bit too fast. And now, let’s reset and trust that it is going to bring better results than the mind could come up with.
Tip 5: Busyness is inefficiency, inefficiency is opportunity
Ryan: Yeah, it’s amazing. It’s a great tip. So let’s go to your last one. Tip number five. What’s your tip number five?
Orion: Playing up what I was just saying, busyness is inefficiency, and inefficiency is opportunity. So, anywhere there’s busyness, urgency… well, there’s good urgency.
There’s good stress and bad stress. I think a lot of you listening are probably familiar with that concept, so this isn’t to be too generalized, but if you’re experiencing, like, a lot of urgent busyness day in and day out, or you and your team are – for me, I would always get skeptical about that and look for the opportunity in that because I can almost guarantee if that’s a perpetual problem, there is an inefficiency waiting to be removed and there’s some wasted energy somewhere.
And every day that it’s that block, there are lost resources and lost profit. So, really, again, taking the time to slow down, carving some time out of the week to address inefficiencies, even if it’s an hour to start, like really put on that cap and look for the opportunities in the busyness.
Ryan: I’m sure you have so many techniques that would be useful for learning how to even do that. And we’re great to even get a bit of this. So it’s absolutely been wonderful to have you here, and we appreciate all the information and insights you’ve provided.
Orion: Awesome. Thanks so much, Ryan, for your time. And yes, I hope whoever’s out there listening, I hope you got a lot out of this.
And if you want to have a conversation, I’m definitely open to chatting. It’ll be in the show notes, as Ryan said, how to book some time. I’d love to hear about you and your team and just offer some support and see if there’s any way I can help.